a e o á é ó > ā ē ō â ê ô / _{s n?t r l m}-s#or
CH > J / _R?VV?C*CHis a valid sound change expression?
quoting Rhetorica:No one ever asks for sound change appliers—but that is because no one knows how to use them or what features they offer, and they are generally not willing to admit it.
quoting Radius:quoting Rhetorica:No one ever asks for sound change appliers—but that is because no one knows how to use them or what features they offer, and they are generally not willing to admit it.
Anyone who has much end-user experience with SCAs can tell you that the process of debugging your SC list so the program finally comprehends exactly what you want it to do, a painful and tedious process not given full justice by your phrasing "knows how to use them", is often more work than just sound-changing all your words by hand. If you're only applying six or eight changes to a wordlist that's thousands of entries long, it would be worth it. But using an SCA to apply longer and quite complicated changes of the sort you actually find in natlang histories makes one want to rip off one's own arms and gnaw them to bits, because relatively few real-world changes are so simple as x > y / _z. Just as often it's something like "change the rightmost t to a k if and only if the word does not already contain a k" where the SCA needs to examine the contents of the entire word in order to correctly make the requested change (and none that I know of will actually do this; they all seem to be limited to mere pattern matching). Or, you'll get things like "ijj, ij, j > ij, j, 0 / respectively" or some other such situation where multiple lines are necessary but no matter which order you put them in they interfere with each other's outputs. That's just two examples off the top of my head. But there's a whole sea of possible sound changes that SCAs are too dumb to deal with nicely, and in principle they're all fixable by re-working the structure of your SC list. But figuring out how to do so - especially if there's several of these messes and they interact with each other - is no easy task for people who aren't programmers.
quoting Radius:Anyone who has much end-user experience with SCAs can tell you that the process of debugging your SC list so the program finally comprehends exactly what you want it to do, a painful and tedious process not given full justice by your phrasing "knows how to use them", is often more work than just sound-changing all your words by hand.
quoting Morrígan:Ultimately, this SCA is part of another system for hypothesis testing proposed reconstructions and sets of rules deriving child forms from them. The fact that it's usable by humans too is an added bonus. IMO, the most important contribution is that it can be used with a feature model, and understands (by default, though you can turn it off) that pʰ is different from p, and that a rule affecting the latter will not affect the former.
quoting Kereb:quoting Radius:Anyone who has much end-user experience with SCAs can tell you that the process of debugging your SC list so the program finally comprehends exactly what you want it to do, a painful and tedious process not given full justice by your phrasing "knows how to use them", is often more work than just sound-changing all your words by hand.
Yeah, I haven't found an SCA yet that wasn't more trouble to learn, and to trick into doing what I need, than just applying the sound changes myself. But then again I don't actually value having a fully sound-changed lexicon done for me automatically since I don't feel any entry should BE in the lexicon that hasn't been manually vetted anyway.
quoting Nessari:I think the issue is more that if you have situations XYZ where pʰ > p, it's fiendishly hard to get the rules to not treat the subsequent p along with original p, if that's what you want to do.
quoting dhok:One idea is to have an entry field for strings of characters that must be treated as single characters. Using Zompist's SCA, I've often found myself resorting to such extravagant representations as Devanagari characters for phonemes that the Latin alphabet has trouble representing easily.
This SCA could set aside a block of rarely-used Unicode characters- say, Yi syllabics- and replace each string in this block with a character from this block. (The nice thing about computer programs is that they can automatically replace and read characters that humans can't easily type or interpret). It will do the same with strings in the rule file as it runs. Then, at the end, it converts them all back. You're still working with one phoneme = one character, but the human doesn't have to mess around with special symbols.
quoting Rhetorica:quoting dhok:One idea is to have an entry field for strings of characters that must be treated as single characters. Using Zompist's SCA, I've often found myself resorting to such extravagant representations as Devanagari characters for phonemes that the Latin alphabet has trouble representing easily.
This SCA could set aside a block of rarely-used Unicode characters- say, Yi syllabics- and replace each string in this block with a character from this block. (The nice thing about computer programs is that they can automatically replace and read characters that humans can't easily type or interpret). It will do the same with strings in the rule file as it runs. Then, at the end, it converts them all back. You're still working with one phoneme = one character, but the human doesn't have to mess around with special symbols.
This is, in fact, something I had planned on for klank, our on-site SCA. Syllable-finding, too. However, it is a pain in the ass to write an SCA, so I'd really prefer it if Morrígan could just add every feature everyone's ever requested to hers... but, hey, y'gotta make do.