The Historical Linguistics Thread
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? dhok posts: 235
, Alkali Metal message
I had been intending to make this for a while, but I have been browsing T. Burrow's The Sanskrit Language (an excellent reference work for all diachronic things Sanskrit), and stumbled upon the following intriguing passage:


The intermediate forms ś, ź, źh will explain most of the Indo-Iranian developments, as they will the Balto-Slavonic, but it is likely that before complete assibilation there was an affricate stage. Evidence of this is preserved in the Kafiri dialects, which occupy an intermediate position between Indian and Iranian. The treatment that occurs in Kati duć '10' and ćui 'empty' for instance (Sanskrit dáśa, śūnyá-) seems clearly to reflect a form more ancient than that of Sanskrit.

I know many of the people I've talked to, at least, doubt there ever was a true affricate stage in the Satem development of the palatovelars, and of course material on Dardic is hard to come by, especially diachronic material. But what do we make of this?
? Nortaneous ? ?????
posts: 467
, Marquis, Maryland
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quoting dhok:
I know many of the people I've talked to, at least, doubt there ever was a true affricate stage in the Satem development of the palatovelars

Why?
? Nessari ?????? ?????? ????????
posts: 932
, Illúbequía, Seattle, Cascadia
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quoting dhok:
I had been intending to make this for a while, but I have been browsing T. Burrow's The Sanskrit Language (an excellent reference work for all diachronic things Sanskrit), and stumbled upon the following intriguing passage:


The intermediate forms ś, ź, źh will explain most of the Indo-Iranian developments, as they will the Balto-Slavonic, but it is likely that before complete assibilation there was an affricate stage. Evidence of this is preserved in the Kafiri dialects, which occupy an intermediate position between Indian and Iranian. The treatment that occurs in Kati duć '10' and ćui 'empty' for instance (Sanskrit dáśa, śūnyá-) seems clearly to reflect a form more ancient than that of Sanskrit.

I know many of the people I've talked to, at least, doubt there ever was a true affricate stage in the Satem development of the palatovelars, and of course material on Dardic is hard to come by, especially diachronic material. But what do we make of this?

First of all, get your language group right: the old term Kaffir/Kafir/Kafiri refers to the Nuristani languages (of which Kati is one), not the Dardic languages. Do not confuse the two groups, they are of quite distinct origins.

Second off, http://nuristan.info/, http://nuristan.info/Nuristani/phon.html, and http://nuristan.info/lngFrameL.html.
Richard Strand's pages on the Nuristani languages have been on the Net for well over a decade…I'm rather perplexed as to how you haven't ran into them before, if you've actually been looking around.
? dhok posts: 235
, Alkali Metal message
Ah, I must have confused the two...woops. Thanks, Nessari. Also, wow, that website is an antique by now...

Nort: I think what I'm recalling is that I'd been advised by several sources that I could not realistically get away with having č j as reflexes for *ḱ ǵ in an a posteriori IE language. Seems I'll have to rethink that...
? Nessari ?????? ?????? ????????
posts: 932
, Illúbequía, Seattle, Cascadia
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Yeah, I first ran into it in like 1998, and the only thing that's changed since then that wasn't cosmetic so far as I could tell is the url and the local situation update.

Nort: I think what I'm recalling is that I'd been advised by several sources that I could not realistically get away with having č j as reflexes for *ḱ ǵ in an a posteriori IE language. Seems I'll have to rethink that...

o_O do you mean people saying 'don't do this, it's unsupportable' or do you mean books which said č ǰ etc don't occur? And is this part of why you were all weird about Scythian (mine, not the real one) happening to end up distinguishing reflexes of *k ḱ kʷ?
? Morrígan Witch Queen of New York
posts: 303
, Marquise message
If it makes you feel any better, Kuma-Koban had tɕʰ tɕ dʑ as reflexes of the palatovelars, and I don't give a shit. I'm gonna change it, but because I decided to make it Centum.
? Nessari ?????? ?????? ????????
posts: 932
, Illúbequía, Seattle, Cascadia
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Wooo

That was basically my response to the questioning of my keeping them separate, which I hadn't even explicitly realized I'd done, frankly.

The not giving a shit, not changing it to Centum.

Also for the record Old Ganžas (Scythian's in-world ancestor) did not have extant č ǰ, but not because of anyone saying *ḱ ǵ couldn't become those.
? Morrígan Witch Queen of New York
posts: 303
, Marquise message
Not to derail the thread, but I decided to make (what used to be) Kuma-Koban to Centum because I really wanted to split the labiovelars and decided it was too unrealistic to be as much of a Centum-Satem hybrid as it was - also, I decided I didn't really like the way RUKI affected the language.

So I decided it would be Centum, but later experience secondary palatalization of the plain velars in a somewhat Satem-esque manner. I'll start a thread, eventually.
? Nessari ?????? ?????? ????????
posts: 932
, Illúbequía, Seattle, Cascadia
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Yeah, I still haven't ended up implementing RUKI in Scythian…it desperately needs attention, the bulk of the work done on it is from 8-9 years ago, I'm almost embarrassed by it courtesy of what I've learned since then.

Also, it's a historical linguistics thread, of course conIElangs are going to come up
? thelettermu posts: 262
, Groovy Cat message
quoting dhok:
Ah, I must have confused the two...woops. Thanks, Nessari. Also, wow, that website is an antique by now...

Nort: I think what I'm recalling is that I'd been advised by several sources that I could not realistically get away with having č j as reflexes for *ḱ ǵ in an a posteriori IE language. Seems I'll have to rethink that...

Eastern Romance languages have got those reflexes. (Some of them, at least.)
? dhok posts: 235
, Alkali Metal message
quoting Nessari:
Yeah, I first ran into it in like 1998, and the only thing that's changed since then that wasn't cosmetic so far as I could tell is the url and the local situation update.

Nort: I think what I'm recalling is that I'd been advised by several sources that I could not realistically get away with having č j as reflexes for *ḱ ǵ in an a posteriori IE language. Seems I'll have to rethink that...

o_O do you mean people saying 'don't do this, it's unsupportable' or do you mean books which said č ǰ etc don't occur? And is this part of why you were all weird about Scythian (mine, not the real one) happening to end up distinguishing reflexes of *k ḱ kʷ?

I think people were telling me ḱ ǵ -> č j was unsupportable.

There isn't anything wrong with distinguishing ḱ k kʷ, I suppose, but it's a weird thing to do- the only IE languages that do it, Luwian and Albanian, aren't exactly the poster children for "standard dead IE language".
? Nessari ?????? ?????? ????????
posts: 932
, Illúbequía, Seattle, Cascadia
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I didn't really think about it at the time, and if I backtracked on that now I doubt I'd be satisfied that what results wasn't boringly generic un-E/W-diagnostic Iranian…not that it doesn't have that problem anyways. And it occurred to me this morning that I don't actually have the exact sound changes I used to get from PIE to the base for Modern Scythian laid out, as I was winging it fairly hard at the time1. I should fix that.

_________________________
1. I do have a file with laid-out sound changes, but not all of the ones which eventually made it into Scythian. And it's based off of Babaev's old IE lang grammar pages, so it's got quite a few issues of its own.
? Morrígan Witch Queen of New York
posts: 303
, Marquise message
Kind of on-topic:
Any one have (or have access to) a PDF of Lexikon der indogermanischen Verben (H Rix, M  Kümmel)?

I sort of need it.
? KathTheDragon Beware the Dragon
posts: 92
, Baroness of United Kingdom
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Search for it on lib.freescienceengineering.org

(I'd post a direct link, but my tablet keeps seizing up )
? Morrígan Witch Queen of New York
posts: 303
, Marquise message
Awesome, thanks. I was not familiar with that site.

I'm working on finally building the unified PIE lexicon in RDF with citations back to the original texts.
? KathTheDragon Beware the Dragon
posts: 92
, Baroness of United Kingdom
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quoting Morrígan, Baroness:
Awesome, thanks. I was not familiar with that site.

I'm working on finally building the unified PIE lexicon in RDF with citations back to the original texts.

That would be pretty awesome. Will you include full etymologies?
? Morrígan Witch Queen of New York
posts: 303
, Marquise message
EVERYTHING.

I'm gonna do the thing I did with the earlier version of the composite lexicon, only better.
? Nessari ?????? ?????? ????????
posts: 932
, Illúbequía, Seattle, Cascadia
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ALL_THE_THINGS.jpg
? Morrígan Witch Queen of New York
posts: 303
, Marquise message
(╯ಠ益ಠ)╯︵ [ɓuıɥʇλɹəʌə]
? KathTheDragon Beware the Dragon
posts: 92
, Baroness of United Kingdom
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Nice.
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