A short IRC discussion about some problems I've run into with regards to changes from Arapaho, and what this means for the spreadsheet.
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[10:11] <dhok> ok so
[10:11] <dhok> everyone listen up
[10:11] <dhok> (h13 you too)
[10:12] <dhok> I have just finished spreadsheeting the sound changes found in a paper about Arapaho and Atsina
[10:12] <dhok> it has been a wealth of information
[10:12] <dhok> and also indicates some problems we may run into
[10:18] <YaaliAnnar> Go on
[10:23] <dhok> well
[10:23] <dhok> first is the question of representation: do we use IPA for everything?
[10:23] <dhok> actual /y/ is nonexistant in the americas and most Americanists use <y> for /j/
[10:24] <dhok> secondly is the problem of exceptions
[10:24] <dhok> for example
[10:24] <dhok> in Arapaho
[10:24] <dhok> there was a change i -> u / oC_
[10:24] <dhok> except
[10:24] <dhok> if that C was /t θ n/ (ie a dental)
[10:24] <dhok> this didn't happen
[10:25] <dhok> thirdly we have the problem of making chain and related shifts clear
[10:25] <dhok> arapaho had Proto-Algonquian *k -> Ø and then *p -> k
[10:25] <dhok> clearly a chain shift
[10:25] <dhok> there were also a number of related shifts
[10:25] <Slereah> Do any hunter gatherers do their gathering in urban environments
[10:26] <dhok> this gets to the fourth and hariest problem
[10:26] <dhok> proto-arapaho-atsina had a vowel inventory of just three vowels: /i e o/
[10:26] <dhok> where *i was front and high, *e was front and non-high, and *o was back and non-high
[10:26] <dhok> then there were a set of parallel consonant shifts in Arapaho and Atsina
[10:27] <YaaliAnnar> Any reason why you shouldn’t use IPA?
[10:27] <dhok> where in Arapaho the front vowels *i *e would change consonants in the same way and *o would do it in another way
[10:27] <H13> dhok, forum
[10:27] <dhok> while in Atsina, *e and *o grouped together as non-high vowels and *i did its own thing
[10:27] <H13> anthologica already suffers from everything basically going on in irc
[10:27] <H13> but for things like this
[10:27] <dhok> h13 I'll just copy the chat here
[10:27] <H13> persistent
[10:27] <H13> storage
[10:28] <dhok> the issue is that there were a number of non-changes that arguably should be counted as changes
[10:28] <dhok> for example, in Arapaho, Goddard lists a change *k -> k / _o
[10:28] <dhok> which doesn't look like a change at all!
[10:28] <dhok> BUT
[10:29] <dhok> *k was part of a class of sounds *k *m *š that got affected before vowels in various ways
[10:30] <dhok> so *k -> k / _o was the mirror-"change" to *k -> č / _[i e]
[10:30] <Caroline> So then why is it even listed
[10:30] <dhok> just like *m -> w / _o was the mirror-change to *m -> b / _[i e]
[10:30] <Caroline> Oh, like that.
[10:30] <dhok> bingo
[10:30] <dhok> there wasn't a phonetic change
[10:31] <dhok> but it's part of a wider sound shift and in that sense it is a sound change, it's what happened to *k before *o