[20:54] <H13> shit conlang is from
[20:54] <H13> < m n ŋ p t č k ʔ f s š h w r l y a ɨ ɔ u ə i o u
[20:54] <dhok> no *ɛ in proto-shit
[20:54] <dhok> ?
[20:54] <dhok> oh i see it is shit manchu
[20:55] <H13> yes
[20:55] <H13> voicing is from +ATR
[20:55] <H13> and the vowels got shifted around
[20:55] <H13> mostly by "everything is E or e now"
[20:56] <dhok> +ATR to voicing
[20:56] <dhok> that is a cool change
[20:56] <dhok> is that attested
[20:56] <H13> several times
[20:56] <H13> prominently in turkish
[20:56] <dhok> k00l
[20:56] <dhok> also in africa presumably?
[20:56] <H13> yes
[20:57] <dhok> hmmmmmm
[20:57] * dhok might steal this
[20:57] <dhok> do you actually need a +ATR harmony feature
[20:58] <H13> no
[20:58] <H13> it can be incidental
[20:58] <H13> proto-turkic had it incidentally to back/front
[20:58] <H13> and SW turkic went and voiced plosives before front vowels
[20:59] <dhok> fascinating
[20:59] <dhok> including rounded ones?
[20:59] <H13> yes
[20:59] <H13> *kör > gör
[21:00] <dhok> ooooh
[21:03] <H13> but I am suspecting that for this to work you need +front < +atr
[21:03] <H13> which is the fancy new altaicist hypothesis wrt turkic
[21:04] <H13> (this is attested in somali and mongolic)

...

[21:11] <H13> dhok: the *standard* hypothesis is that mongolic did it the other way around
[21:11] <H13> like
[21:11] <H13> +front > +ATR